Posts by moggy lover

13

Is the "Kingdom" a "government"?

by Doug Mason in

my understanding is that the wts says the "kingdom of god/heavens" is a "government".

where do they get that idea from in scripture?

i presume that by "government" they mean "a system of exercising authority through an executive policy making body".

moggy lover

The repetitious use of the word "kingdom" in WT literature serves as one of several mechanisms to deflect attention away from Jesus Christ Personally, so as to concentrate on an abstraction. There are other mechanisms of course, the use of the hybrid word "jehovah" being another, and the focussing of attention on the FDS as a collective divinely appointed leadership also being one.

There are numerous examples of how this stress on the concept of the "kingdom" works:

1 The way WT literature treats Ps 72 is interesting in this regard. In recent years, since 1986 in fact, at least two publications have made reference to this Ps and explained it in terms of an abstraction, rather than as it is done in the Ps itself.

For instance, in the "True Peace and Security" book, published in 1986, we find this gem of wisdom, on pg 41: "With God's government by his Son Christ Jesus excercising dominion over all the earth, the ancient Ps of the Bible, Ps 72:7,8 will find fulfillment"

Nine years later, in 1995, referring to this same Ps, The book "Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life" says, on Pg 97: " Soon we will be able to rejoice not only because Gods Kingdom rules but also because it will bring blessings to the earth and obedient mankind - Ps 72:7,8"

However even a cursory reading of the text of Ps 72 tells us something different. Evidently initially referring to King Solomon, the Ps is also clearly Messianic in character, and rather than referring to an "it" that supposedly brings blessings to mankind, the Ps repeatedly refers to "HE" and "Him" as the bringer of these same blessings.[Vss 2, 4,6,7,8,9,9,11,11,12,12,13,13,14,14,15,15,15,17,17,17] As can be seen, if this Ps is futuristic in its application as implied by WT literature, then the future blessings mentioned in that Ps will be implemented by an individual Person, not an "it".

2 Perhaps the most blasphemous application of the "kingdom" into WT theology, and in direct contradiction of Jo 5:40, is an illustration found on the inside cover of the 1985 WT brochure entitled: "The Government That Will Bring Paradise" in this illustration, we see Jesus, surrounded by what evidently are His attentive disciples, pointing away from Himself to a glorious, radiantly crowned mountain, symbolizing God's Kingdom, as the bringer of "paradise"

There is not for a moment any shred of doubt in the minds of the WT leadership that the Kingdom as conceived by them is "A real operating heavenly government" [Knowledge book, pg 91] already constituted and prepared to take control of human affairs. In fact, it is so real, that those members that have died and gone to heaven already are, according to the Jan 1 WT of 2007, communicating with those members of the kingdom who are still alive here on earth. !!

Cheers

20

NWT Revisions

by Jeffro in

there is mention on a wikipedia article that there was a 2006 revision of the nwt.

is this true?

what differences are there?

moggy lover

To the best of my knowledge, the NWT text was standardized back in 1984. All subsequent editions have reflected that printing. What would make it somewhat impossible to make another "revision" is that, at least since 1999, when Milton Henschel, the last surviving member of the original committee, died, there is no one left to do the revision.

Cheers

14

Angel Christology

by POSTMAN in

new to this list so i am not aware what has been discussed perhaps i am requesting for repete answers forgive me if this is the case.

i am very interested in the christ michael argument.

could i be directed to all watchtower arguments where this belief is set out.

moggy lover

Narkissos, I found that they have indeed changed the format of their site somewhat. To access the article I am talking about you will need to:

1 Type in the Jehovah's Witness's United site on Google

2 When you get to the page click "site search"

3 This where they have changed the format. Previously, a series of articles would pop up. But now you need to type in "Is Jesus Michael" in the site search using the "advanced search" clip.

4 The first article that pops up is one researched and written by one Chuck McManigal, who may or may not actually be a WT follower.

Read it and let us know your critique.

If you still have trouble try : http://jehovah.to./exe/general/archangel.htm

Cheers

14

Angel Christology

by POSTMAN in

new to this list so i am not aware what has been discussed perhaps i am requesting for repete answers forgive me if this is the case.

i am very interested in the christ michael argument.

could i be directed to all watchtower arguments where this belief is set out.

moggy lover

If you want to read a well researched article written from a WTS perspective I would reccomend the Jehovah's Witnesses United web site.

When you get to the site, click "site search" and a series of articles, including one entitled "Is Jesus Michael the Archangel"? will pop up. It is articulate, erudite, and even if, as in my case, not accepatable, still, conceded to be persuasive in its own right.

It prints out into a lengthy ten page document.

Cheers

32

THE WAGES SIN PAYS

by Dansk in

the bible tells us that the wages sin pays is death.

therefore, when we die our debt is paid.. however, in the bible there are a number of cases where people got resurrected.

as their debt was paid, this means they couldn't die again.. ah, but some might say that these ones merely went on to live the average length of time and then died again.

moggy lover

Evangelicals believe that the context, particularly taking in the grammatical tense that Paul uses throughout Rom Ch 6, is helpful in determining what he is talking about.

It is true that quite often the WTS has used Ro 6:7 to justify its teaching that the incorrigible are given a "second chance" when they are resurrected sometime during the Millennium. They give the impression that Paul is saying that once one dies, the debt he owed has been paid so when resurrected that person can now start again, a free from the burden of his past.

Is that what Paul is referring to? Ever notice how, whenever the WTS uses this verse they never consult the context, ie the surrounding vss of Ch 6, to detirmine Paul's meaning.

The question that Paul is adressing is not the resurrection, but one that the WTS itself often uses, cynically, to negate the grace of God in forgiving us, thus no longer requiring us to "work" to expiate our sins. What? You mean that God has forgiven me all my sins? Even those I hav'nt even committed yet? Every single sin? And all I gotta to is believe on the Lord Jesus? Yes.

But that means I can just keep on sinning since I have already been fogiven, right?

Wrong. Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase? No. 6:1.

Why?

Because there are two kinds of people in the world today. Those who are dead and those who are alive. The thing that seperates them is sin. The awfullness of sin has never really been made plain to the R&F of the WTS. If you continue in your sins, then, being alive to sin, you are in fact dead to God. If you are dead to sin, then you are alive to God. This is the alternative Paul discusses in Ro ch 6.

Either be alive or dead. If belief in Christ is motivating you, then consider yourself alive. [6:11]. This will cause you to break the power of sin in your life, no longer obeying its desires. You cannot be, as the WTS suggests, alive to God, by going from d-t-d, yet at the same time also alive to sin.[6:16]

If you are alive to sin, then sin has a hold of you. No matter how many times you ask forgivness, no matter how many hours you spend in the field service, because you are alive to sin, you are unforgiven.

But what if you have died to sin? Ah! That, according to Paul, is precisely the point!! You are then acquitted from sin, and it has no hold on you [6:7] The grace of God has now got a hold of you, and you are alive to Him.[6:17]

Belief in Christ, living what Paul calls an existence "in Christ" causes two seperate conditions in the believers life: 1. Complete forgiveness, of all sin.Past. Present. And future [Note that according to the WTS, belief in the WTS only ensures forgiveness of something called "Adamic sin" your own personal sins need expiation by your efforts] 2: Being now acquitted from sin, you enjoy fellowship with Christ, for while yet being a sinner, capable of sin, you no longer are alive to it.[6:2]

If you wish to go from d-t-d, evangelize, visit hospitals, feed the poor, or whatever, you don't do so to get forgiveness for sin, because you are already acquitted from it, but because the appreciation for the grace of God motivates you.

The first guy to understand this point clearly was Martin Luther, back in the 16th century

And he broke from Rome.

Many ex-WT followers are in the same position, leading to their break from Brooklyn Heights.

Cheers

6

Revelation 5:10

by pete957133 in

moggy lover

Hi,P957133, and welcome to the forum.

Now.....You were saying?

Cheers

106

POLL: Would You Ever Consider Going Back To The Organization?

by minimus in

jw
friends

yes, no or maybe....and why?

moggy lover

WOW! What a dream!! I dreamt I was, like, this... CO? And I was on a date with Leo....... Darn near exhausted me!!

Sorry.

Erm... What was the question?

Cheers

29

JWs and Gambling

by JohnnyMarr in

jw
friends

i've been inactive for a while and i can't remember the jws stance on gambling.

i'm kinda big into poker now and i want to know what to expect if i'm televised or spotted in a public tournament.

is it a disfellowshipping offense, public reproof offense, or conscious decision?

moggy lover

Yep. If you're seen you'd be a goner.

As any spy worth his salt will tell you, the two dead giveaways are the shape of the ears and the way you walk. Like a fingerprint, we all have individual walks.

Remember to go as an Amish brother, with long hair to cover the ears, along with a beard.

Oh, and another thing. Put a pebble in your shoe, to walk with a limp.

You can win [or lose] as many matches as you want, and no one will know - except of course for the 400 odd of us on JWD. We can always negotiate a renumeration for our collective silence.

Coming to think of it, it might be cheaper to get disfellowshipped.

Cheers

4

1914 Generation Doctrine

by averyniceguy in

when did the watchtower teach 1914 generation doctrine for the 1st time?

moggy lover

To the best of my knowledge the 1874 thing was replaced by the 1914 thingee in 1925. Which would be a convenient time to date the 1914 generation doctrine, in my opinion.

Of course, like a combination of snake oil salesmen and conjurers, they have advanced several apologetics for what the "1914 generation" might mean. Not all of which, as is the latest one, being understandable to the R&F.

Cheers

32

Who is going to finally expose the WTS for what it really is?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

jw
friends

the walls of the wts are finally being cracked but nobody is breaking down the walls.we have the internet exposing all their lies,elders resigning,no new members beside families being baptized, contributions dwindling,teens leaving in droves,and layoffs at the wts headquarters .still,the walls remain intact.the 800 lbs.

gorilla is missing to break down the wall.. we know in 1975 many members left but the wts wall was easily repaired.who will finally break the walls down and how will it happen?

what will it take for a mass exodus?.

moggy lover

I don't think any one person or even any group acting as one person will accomplish this. But having said that, I would rather be on our side of the fence than the WTS's..

The position facing the WTS is similar to that faced by the 16th century RC church as it braced itself for the intellectual onslaught brought about by the information revolution which the invention of printing produced. The RC Church at that time used strong arm tactics such as the Spanish Inquisition, [Oooh I asked for this: Did someone mention the Spanish Inquisition? - Enter a menacing, gaudily garbed, Michael Palin] But their greatest support came from the ordinary R&F who, convinced of the Church's divine right to the exclusive approval of God, rallied to cause. This stemmed the hemorrage, but irrevocably diminished their influence.

Showing that they have learned nothing from history, the WTS is reacting to the information explosion brought about by the internet in the same way. With starchamber tactics, and because of an even greater desire to control the way their R&F receive information, with pressure from the elders.

Funny about the R&F though. Just as in the 16th century, we are seeing the fanatical zeal of those who are convinced, possibly as a result of the jhoover syndrom, [ie that simply pronouncing this tri-syllabic word ensures divine authority in their lives] to stand by their theological masters. We will always see a reservoir of believers who are content to abdicate all thinking to those they consider as having the exclusive backing of God.

But statistics don't lie. There are more of us than there are of them!! More people have been able excercise their own insights into the facts and abandoned their flawed leaders than those who by blind obedience, have stayed on.

With an average membership of some 6M world wide, well over that number are ex-followers of the WTS. As the Net becomes more accessable to the majority, the bankruptcy of WT belief will be all that more evident.

To the great fear of the WT leadership, the tide is in our favour. And we are all contributing.

Ever noticed the number of newbies on JWD lately?

Cheers